Again, this question is really answered in the previous two posts, and , but I want to take the opportunity to explain something very important about the Bible.
When you take something from the Bible, you must take it from the context of the entire Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, and try to understand it from the perspective of the true author, which I believe is God, so he makes his decisions thinking about all people, for all time, being immortal. So how does this effect this command?
Your question comes from the Old Testament book Deuteronomy 22: 13-30, and it is true and accurately stated. Now, what was the purpose of the Old Testament? The Old Testament or “Covenant” agreement between God and man, in its simplest form, is “I God am perfect and to be truly united with me you must be perfect. Here are the rules, follow them perfectly.” If you are going to be serious about this the results for sin must be severe because the ultimate end is eternal. But could anyone ever really keep all the laws perfectly? Of course not! There in lies the true purpose of the Old Testament. No matter how clear the rules, and how severe the punishment, none of us, absolutely no one, could keep them and be worthy of being in God’s presence. But, if God did not make every effort to be extremely clear about the reprucussions of sin, we could make the claim he was unjust. So to make his point that we cannot earn our way to heaven, God had to be willing to make extreme examples.
That is the Old Testament, but we need to see how this fits into the context of the entire Bible, so what about the New Testament?
There is a story in the John 8: 1-11 that addresses this so exactly it is almost scary! The religious leaders bring a woman caught in adultery to Jesus and remind him of the above passage. They ask him if she should be stoned or not. Most of us know his answer: “Let the one among you who has never sinned cast the first stone.” This contrast the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. The New Covenant basically says this: “I (God) have proven to you through the last 1,500 years of the Old Covenant that all people are hopelessly sinful no matter how hard they try or how extreme I am. Yet, I being just must not let evil go unpunished. Therefore, I will punish my own son for your sins and offer your forgiveness if you are willing to admit you need it and my son suffered for you. You in return, must be forgiving to others for you yourselves are sinners.”
For all this to make any true sense you must again be reminded of God’s perspective as stated in . But in short summary, if you take the passage of the Bible in the context of the entire Bible, we see that we clearly are no longer supposed the stone people for adultery. Jesus changed everything.
The next logical question of course is: “So God changes over time. I thought he was always the same. It doesn’t make sense.”
Of course God doesn’t change, but humanity does. When you are a parent you may spank a 2 year old to teach them not to touch a hot stove, but do you spank your teenager? Humanity and its relationship with God matures over time. God doesn’t change, but we have changed a lot and current humans with vastly greater access to information etc. are treated much differently than God would have treated humans 2,000 years ago. I hope humanity as a whole has matured at least a little over all this time. From God’s perspective, it all makes a lot of sense.
I don’t think you believe in the Bible in it’s entirety. Do you believe it is not only OK to own slaves but to beat them as well?
Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
So, if you beat your slave with a rod and he/she dies, you’ll be “punished”. But if he/she lives for a few days after the beating and then dies, you’re alright.
Or how about making a rape victim marry their rapist?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Or Unicorns? Do you believe in Unicorns?
Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
How about Dragons and Satyrs?
Isaiah 34:13 – 14 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
Surely you don’t believe the earth is flat?
Daniel 4:10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
(A tree couldn’t been seen from the anywhere on the earth unless it was flat. This is just one of many verses suggesting the earth is flat. Also, has edges and sits on pillars)
I could go on forever.
And you might say something like “Oh, well, that’s the Old Law and Jesus came and changed it blah blah blah”. Even if that was true, the God in the Bible still commanded the Children of Israel to follow these laws and to do these terrible things. But, sadly, it’s not true.
Numbers 15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
Also…
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
These passages state that the law passed down by Moses is to apply to all subsequent generations. Nothing shall be added or taken away from it; including the laws about slave ownership, stoning your children, forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, killing non-believers and homosexuals, etc. I don’t know where all these Neo-Christians get off thinking that these laws no longer apply to them.
And if that’s not good enough for you, here’s it straight from the horse’s mouth:
Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. -Jesus
I mean, you’ve already accepted that some crazy sky god created billions of people and is going to send the vast majority of them to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity for doing exactly what He created them to do. And that He sent His son, who’s also Him, on a suicide mission to save a small minority of people from the punishment He set up for them.
I don’t think believing in Unicorns is much of a stretch.
First, thank-you for your comments. I need thoughtful challenges, as we all do.
I guess I need to handle these all one at a time, which will take some time but I want to start with saying that some the problem is a matter of perspective. God (the Christian God I believe in) is working the all of humanity for all time and immortality. We have a tendency to judge him and read his words with the short perspective of a life on earth only and only in our modern times. I believe God sees all of humanity as a child. As a father (though not that good of one) I didn’t expect as much from my 2 year old as I did from my 12 year old, as I do from my 20 year old, as I will from my 40 year old child. I believe God expects more from us than he did from humans 3,000 years ago.
You quoted Jesus and rightfully so, but you left out so much of what he taught on this subject. We must try to read scripture as Jesus read it and he gave us some great guidance there. Yes, it is all inspired etc. but he clearly believed that you needed to understand the time a people that each passage was written to because in Matthew 19:8 Jesus says that the laws about divorce were given because of the hardness of the people hearts and he promptly, in effect said that God expects more of you now.
Jesus also clearly believed that the spirit of the scripture, or the true lesson or heart of the scripture was the actual meaning of it. He repeated healed people on the Sabbath, in clear violation of the Sabbath laws, and repeated said it was OK to do good on the Sabbath.
So now lets look as some of the passages you quote in light of these 3 principles (perspective of God and time, reading the Bible with consideration of the times and people that passage was written to, and search for the spirit or deeper meaning of the passage).
Punishment for beating slave, or slave ownership in the first place: When this was written slave ownership and the right to kill a slave was an absolute given. This passage would have been understood by the hearers as radical and hard to swallow. This passage insist that all humans, even the lowliest slave, is still a life that is different and special from all other animals and the punishment for purposefully killing another human was death. This was radical. Also, many slaves were taken in battle and had a Israelite been taken in battle by an enemy he could never expect an such protection by the enemy’s laws. In that context, the deeper meaning of the passage is that followers of God are expected to be treat others radically better than society requires, and even radically better than others would treat them.
The above explanation explains the marriage of the rape victim too. A woman who had been raped in that time would have never been able to find another husband so she would have been completely destitute economically. The man in this case is required to never divorce her and take care of her all of her life and her children got their share of the inheritance etc. like any other children the man may have. This was radical responsibility in that time and it calls us to be radically responsible for our own actions.
Dragons and Unicorns: I suggest you get a better translation of the Bible than the King James, or you learn to read Hebrew. There is no Hebrew word for unicorn. The Hebrew words in this passage are about wild animals of possible unknown origin, though all the modern translation I’ve read use wild bulls which comes from the context. This is also true of your reference to Satyrs. The Hebrew word is usually translated jackal but sometimes “dragon” which to the Israelite of the time meant almost any reptile.
Flat earth: You say the Bible has verses “suggesting” the earth is flat. Suggesting is one thing, but clearly stating is another. Isaiah 40:22 “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.” I think this is the earliest reference to a circular earth known to exist in the world. Also, you are taking the passage from a vision which is clearly metaphorical from beginning to end.
Now I know none of these comments satisfy you, and your comments don’t impress me. Again, it is a matter of perspective. You equate my belief in God to belief in unicorns, and I see your skepticism of the obvious as admiring the cloths of the naked king (The Emperor’s New Clothes by Hans Christian Andersen). You think I find what I want in scripture, and I think you use complex science to try to explain the obvious so you can avoid being morally subject to anyone other than yourself.
We will not agree or convince each other. But I do not know why I find it so easy to treat your thoughts and concerns with respect and kindness and maturity, and you insist on being derisive and scornful and obstinate. The tone of your words is angry, almost fearful. You seem to have a need to convince yourself, not so much me, that the Bible is ridiculous. Your entire passage doesn’t sound like a confident adult. Who are you really trying to convince, and what are you really afraid of?