This is an email exchange between myself and a atheist that I consider a good friend. I had been answering his questions in email form for some time. He gave me the opportunity to reverse the process and ask him something and this is how it went. It was an email exchange that I will try to put in the form of a post and comments.
I don’t understand how people explain away the empty tomb and the gospel stories. I’ll try to keep this short.
Obviously the tomb was empty or the Jews and Romans would have simply produced the body of Jesus and Christianity dies immediately. So then you have to think the apostles stole the body and made everything else up, but that doesn’t work at all. I’m certain the gospel writers believed what they wrote for the following reasons:
1. Women are treated with prominence in all the gospels and in that society at that time no one constructing a lie would have done that. Women at the time weren’t allowed to testify in court, couldn’t own property etc. etc. But in the Gospels Mary, Mary Magdelon, and others are credited with serving Jesus faithfully, being among the first to believe, the first to receive the Holy Spirit and the first that the risen Jesus appeared to. No novel writer at the time who wanted others to believe and respect him would have made that up.
2. I’m sure you’ve heard this, but the writers died for what they wrote, as did most of the other apostles. They could be wrong, but not lying. People die for false things they believe are true, but people don’t die for what they know is false.
3. The 4 gospels have discrepancies (not contradictions). Most scholars think the writers all had access to Mark’s writings. Liars would have been careful to keep their stories exactly straight, especially if they knew what the other person had already wrote. That isn’t the case with these four. They readily write things that appear to tell stories differently. They obviously were more concerned about writing the truth as they knew it, not keeping the lie going.
I actually think it is far easier to believe in a tea pot orbiting the earth than to believe the gospel writers were lying. They could be mistaken, but they fervently believed what they wrote.
So if the tomb was empty, and gospel writers at least believed what they wrote, how they heck do you explain the situation other than the resurrection?
I appreciate the kind words. Just talking to you over e-mail has been a great experience and I am sure it will continue to be. I do respect you. You are the only person who has really challenged me. You have truly been out of the norm when it comes to logical discussions with people. Generally, conversations like ours turn into violent insults (mostly consisting of threats of hell) or they end because nobody is willing to put as much thought into it as I am (I really hope I am not coming across as pretentious saying that). You have a great mind that you have put to good use.
However, I feel if we are to continue our e-mails I must come clean about something… I lied about my age. I am actually 17. I posted on my Yahoo! account that I was 25 so people would not take the “he is only 17, what does he know?!” route. I hope this does not change how you interpret what I have said too much.
The topic of my real age has never come up before when replying back and forth to people I have met through Yahoo! Answers. The sole reason being because I have never had such a deep meaningful conversation with someone until now. Perhaps now that I have come clean about my age we can take a tour through our lives. Instead of strict debates using hard evidence we can take a look at our lives thus far. Perhaps, I can help you understand your teenage children and maybe you can help me understand my over-bearing family. We can even connect on Facebook if you have one and would like to.
Close-mindedness is something you and I both do not have. There are close minded people in every point of view. You and I have both thought very hard on what to think about life and we have both reached a different conclusion, one of is wrong. Which one? Perhaps neither of us. That is what makes life worth living isn’t it? The fear of the unknown, the desire and anticipation of what will come next?
I look forward to where our conversation will go next.
I would never rub your face in anything. I consider you a friend and I appreciate your helping me – immensely. This isn’t a debate I want to win, it is a new world I want to understand. I don’t expect to change your mind, I really want to explore my own. I know we have never met, but I do consider you a friend.
I REALLY think I have thought about this. Holding to my current beliefs requires that I be willing to see my own sons as possibly going to hell. You don’t think I want to find another belief system? I do know the Bible. I know it very well with all its things I can’t understand or explain. I also know it well enough to see the amazing truths I think it holds. REALLY. I know you think my eyes are closed, because frankly I think yours are. But I hope you can accept and respect my beliefs as I accept and respect yours.
I can’t defend Christianity without using faith. But I can’t love my wife without having faith in her either. You can’t study dark matter or black holes without faith in gravity and equations. You have faith in string theory and other such explanations for the universe. I think my beliefs require less faith than yours. You think yours requires less faith than mine. We are intelligent friends who disagree.
For me Austin, Jesus is alive. I believe I know him and relate to him and see his life in my life. Perhaps I am a fool. Perhaps not.
I think this is a turning point for us. We both know exactly where the other stands and we both know neither of us will change our minds. I hope we also both know we are in some way mutually respectful friends. I would love to continue discussing things with you, even things not about God. I would like it to be a little lighter in tone than I have made the last few emails. I would really like to meet you and have few beers some day.
I see you as intelligent, logical, open-minded, and honest with me and with yourself. I don’t think you’re a close minded fool because you came to a different conclusion than me. I hope you see me the same way. I’m betting you do.
I have faith in you Austin.
I have thought about this for a couple of days and have come up with this. I simply can not answer your question. Before you reply rubbing in my face that you are right and I am wrong, let me explain. This question has been debated for 2,000 years (with arguments favoring both sides), there is simply no way I can provide a definitive answer. I can’t answer this question because there is no evidence to support my answer, but (and I beg you to REALLY think about this) there is also no evidence to support your side either. It is a completely neutral discussion, neither of us knowing the answer. You seem like a very intelligent person, for just a few minutes will you close your eyes and think hard about this… throw faith out of the equation, use only your logic portion of your brain and ask yourself if all of it makes sense. Think about the Bible, cover to cover, all the stories does it make sense? The genocide, the unmoral and outdated laws, does it make sense? The stories of miracles, Noah’s ark, Adam and Eve, does it make sense? The book that was written in the Bronze Age by sheep herders who had absolutely no knowledge of the types of science that we had today. Ask yourself, is this book in anyway different than any other religion or religious book that has been written in the past? Noah’s ark is a complete plagiarized copy of The Epic of Gilgamesh that was written hundreds of years before it. You are basing your entire life on one SINGLE unanswerable question: “did Jesus rise from the dead?” Well, did he? You asked me in hopes of an answer, but unfortunately I can give you no such answer. However, if I turned the question around on you could you give me a straight up answer with no mention of faith? Can you prove to me that he rose? Can you even prove that he existed?! This is the most important question to you… a question that can change your entire life, one that simply can not be answered. But you can look everywhere else! Even if the resurrection of Jesus made sense, does the rest of the Bible? What makes your religion different from all of the others that you scoff at? Faith? Simply because you believe in your religion yours is true and everyone else’s are false? Think about it…….. Had you been born in India you would be Hindu right now. Step into an atheist’s shows just for a moment, look through their eyes, think like they would think. It is truly the most amazing feeling you will ever feel. The feeling of your eyes being opened, the entire world changes around you. You are basing your entire life on one question… a question that can not be answered, does that make sense? There are thousands more questions about the Bible that
Oh man… I have much to say on the crucifixion of Jesus and I apologize beforehand if this e-mail gets a little lengthy.
On the point about women… Sexism in the Bible is very predominant. The verse I quote most often being 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Aside from the fact that there is already a large amount of sexism in the Bible; did either of the Mary’s ever do anything out of the norm for women in that age? Mary Magdalene served dinner to the disciples and washed Jesus’ feet. Mary, Jesus’ mother, did nothing but nurse her child. They were regular women who did nothing out of the ordinary for women of that day. So both the Marys were treated just as any other woman would have been in those days.
Onto the point about martyrs. Did anybody ever die for what they wrote? There are countless of examples down the line of people who have died because of their faith in what was previously written, but I have never heard of someone dying because of the things they wrote. John the baptist was beheaded because he constantly preached of a new king coming to overthrow the government and Paul was imprisoned for preaching about his experience on the road to Damascus, but never because of the things he coined on paper.
The Bible does have many discrepancies that I would consider to be gigantic contradictions. 1) Matthew, Mark, and Luke all contend that Jesus was crucified with thieves, but John doesn’t. And the Romans never crucified thieves. 2) In Matthew, Mark, and Luke some women are at Jesus’ crucifixion and observe from afar. In John the women are close enough to even talk to Jesus (which was also against Roman practices). 3) All the gospels give different times of the crucifixion. They vary from the “sixth hour” to the “third hour”. 4) The biggest one of all: Matthew states that there was a giant earthquake, a giant curtain rips in two, and tombs open and the dead rise from their graves. Mark, Luke, and John don’t mention anything about this. There are hundreds more but those are the only I am going to list just to get my point across.
Another point would be: the resurrection story is not original. Many, many religions have used the resurrection story before, most notably, Osiris and Baal. The Bible has stolen many things from other religions (my favorite to point out is Noah’s Ark was stolen from “The Epic of Gilgamesh” which if you haven’t read you should. It is a great story.)
One of my absolute FAVORITE questions to ask Christians really fits well in this topic. Where did Jesus go when he died? Whilst Jesus was on the cross he told on of the thieves “Today, you will surely be with me in heaven”, but the Bible definitely says that Jesus does not return to his Kingdom until after he ascends from the mountainside… So where did he go? When he died there are 3 things that could have happened: 1) He went to heaven (which didn’t happen because he didn’t return for 43 more days). 2) He didn’t go anywhere (which didn’t happen becuase then he wouldn’t really be dead and the would destroy the point of the crucifixion). Or 3) He went to hell. So where did he go?
I appear to have asked a good question! We both seem passionate about it.
I think I need to restate my question to keep us on point, because I really want this question answered. It is very central to my beliefs. I have asked several people this, and they always wonder off the question, use it to ask other questions, but I have yet to get an answer to the question I am trying to ask. I think I am asking it incorrectly. Let me try again.
I only see 3 possibilities regarding the gospels.
1. The writers stole the body, were lying and knew they were lying.
2. The writers were fooled somehow, were writing what they believed to be true, but they were mistaken.
3. The writers were writing what they believed to be true, and it is true.
Let me try to go with point 1 only. I simply do not think point 1 is a possible answer and you seem to be agreeing with me.
You and I agree about the women in that their place in the story eliminates point 1 above (lying) as a possibility. I agree that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were sexist. Because the writers of the gospels had women discover the empty tomb, and the writers of the gospels were sexist, the writers weren’t lying. Had they been making up a story the sexist men writing the gospels would never have put the women in that position. You have supported my point. (I hope you can see my grin right now and I wish we could be in the same room and have a little laugh as sporting competitve friends do sometimes!)
The martyrs, I am sorry, but I’m a bit lost. Early Christians, Paul, Peter, James etc. etc. died because they spread their belief that Jesus was the son of God which was appalling to the Jewish leaders and the Roman emporers. Whether they did it in speech or on paper or both seems irrelevent. We are back to whether the early writers were lying, or writing what they believed to be true. They were there and they would have either known Jesus never rose and they stole his body (they were lying) or they would have been somehow fooled (they were telling the what they believed but were wrong) or Jesus really did rise (they were telling what they had witnessed and it was true). People will die for points 2 and 3, but not point 1. Again, I think of the three points above, point 1 is not possible.
Your adamence about the discrepencies in the Bible again supports my point that the writers were not lying. Your points about these discrepencies are great points for other discussions, but they are irrelevent to my question. The fact that the stories don’t align perfectly indicates the writers were not all working together to propigate a huge lie. They were each trying to write what they believed to be true. I hope you know that I am not being glib here, but you have made my point. Your points are worthy of discussion, but they make my point that the writers were not lying. Possibility 1 above is not plausible.
You are correct about other religions having resurrections stories, and your question about where Jesus went is a good one…for another question. I really want to stick to the question I’m trying to ask.
You know I respect you Austin and enjoy you immensely, but this time, you didn’t answer my question at all. You asked me to ask a question and I did. I really want to stay focussed on the question. For once I want this question answered and I apologize if the first time out I asked it poorly.
Of the three options regarding the gospels above, I think option 1 is simply not possible for the reasons that I, and sometimes you, have stated. Do you agree that option 1 is impossible? If not, why? Please focus on this question as it is so central to my belief. I promise we can discuss your other questions when I hand the “asker baton” back to you. 🙂
Sorry if I got a bit off track. I was trying to answer your question point by point as you had sent it to me. I will try to be more specific. And don’t bother with the question about where Jesus went at this point. I didn’t include it to get an answer. It was intended to be a rhetorical question to prove a point that the gospels don’t make much sense (which I am sure you will gladly disagree with me for another time). 🙂
First off I will state my opinion on your three options:
1) As you have stated it is highly unlikely that option number one is true for the very reasons you have pointed out and I think you summed it up fantastically! Assuming Jesus did exist (which I could not argue either way, I absolutely hate history and try to base all my arguments scientifically) The disciples reverently respected Jesus and held him as a highly esteemed teacher and surely believed the things that they wrote. We cannot completely rule out the possibility that they made it all up and were lying (whether Jesus existed or not is completely irrelevant) but we can easily say that this option is the least likely of the three.
2) This is the option that I am definitely in favor for. (I will save my comments as to why in the body)
3) I think it is pretty obvious I do not believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead. 🙂
I’ve been thinking about it and trying to figure out what happened to Jesus’ body. First, you must assume that Jesus really did exist (which can be debated, however I am not the one to do that because I have never really looked into it 95% scientifically not historically). So if Jesus didn’t exist the answer is simple: the entire thing is made up. However, in this case I am going to assume Jesus was a real person. There are a number of things that could have happened to Jesus. The most likely being: 1) He died and was placed in a tomb or grave and left forever and people made up the bologna about the empty tomb, etc. later on. 2) Jesus was buried and the disciples stole the body later, disposed of it, and then when the Mary’s went to the tomb they were aghast that the body was gone therefore they had witnesses, and they later wrote the bologna of Jesus being resurrected. 3) The Romans did steal the body (which would be dumb). And the list just goes on and on and on. All hypotheses of what happened to Jesus are highly specularity and have no real historical evidence to back them up (at least not that we know of) and the story that is written down is scientifically impossible and completely unoriginal.
Also, wondering as to whether or not the disciples were lying or not is completely irrelevant. If Christianity is the one true religion then that means that all other religions are untrue. But people die all the time in the name of their religion and the religion they created. So if people of other (and ultimately untrue) religions will die for their beliefs (whether they are delusional, liars, etc.) that means the people in the Bible would be willing to do the same. So if they truly believed that what they wrote was true does not prove the fact that it really happened because the original Muslims wrote that Muhammad ascended to heaven just as Jesus did, but according to you that is completely untrue. I hope you understand what I am getting at. I have a feeling I am not making any sense.
So I think there are endless numbers of things that could have happened to Jesus’ body, the three most likely in my opinion being the ones listed above and this is all very specularity built around whether Jesus really even existed. If I still did not fully satisfy the depth of the question feel free to say so.
Thanks for the reply, and I really think the “off track” was that I had asked a lousy question.
The reason I’m really digging on this one, is that the resurrection is the absolute cornerstone of Christianity. If it didn’t occur, my faith is absolutely and entirely false, not one shred of it is worth a millisecond of consideration. If it did, then the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is who the Bible says he is, and the Bible is the word of God etc. etc. etc. I don’t know of any other religion that has such a pivotal event or belief.
Regarding whether the New Testament writers were lying or mistaken thus also becomes pivotal, at least to my personal faith. If they were lying anything is possible. But if the preponderance of evidence is that they believed what they wrote was true (which you said seemed likely), then we need to figure out how they could be so mistaken about something so important to them, or consider the possibility that he actually rose from the dead (at least this is what the logic behind my faith is) Let’s take your possible explanations:
1. He died, was placed in the tomb and never left and everything was made up. Obviously this requires the New Testament writers to be lying, so that doesn’t help us here.
2. Jesus was buried, the disciples stole the body… Again that requires the NT writers to be lying.
3. The Romans stole the body – now that is possible. The thing is, I don’t think a missing body alone creates the kind of passion that NT writers exhibit. And, they would still have to be lying about the post resurrection meetings with Jesus etc. And lastly, why wouldn’t the Romans produce the body later as a way of crushing the Christian movement and making the Jewish leaders happy?
I understand and appreciate your point about people dying for their faith not necessarily proving they were right. I agree entirely. It does however prove that they believe in what they are dying for. What is different about the NT writers in contrast to most people who die for a religiou belief, is that, for most of them, what they believed was NOT told or taught to them, they were first hand witnesses. So they either died for what they knew for sure was a lie, or they believed what they wrote was true, which puts us back in the circle of explaining how they could be so mistaken.
Let me try to convey to you the “crux” of my faith position here, and I hope this doesn’t take too long. I realize this is my faith position and why I believe. I don’t expect you to suddenly accept it. I am going to try to lay out the step by step logic that I have built my faith upon so you can understand why the resurrection question is so huge to me personally.
1. I won’t rule out the resurrection option simply because it is hard to believe. I intend to follow what I think is the truth wherever it leads, and all options are on the table. If it best explains the evidence I have, I will accept it.
2. I think the Bible pretty clearly predicts Jesus would come, die and rise and why such an event would occur. So, if it actually happened I have to view the Bible as an amazing book and when I disagree with it, I must first assume I am wrong because whoever composed it both predicted Jesus coming, and cared enough to send his son on such a mission for our sakes. If the resurrection occurred, I feel I must be EXTREMELY careful about disagreeing with the Bible because it will have proven itself to be an exceptional book. I can misunderstand it, but I am afraid to say it is wrong.
3. If the resurrection occurred, and therefore the Bible is an amazing book, then Jesus is who Bible says he is, and God is who the Bible says he is, and I need to change my life accordingly. I can admit I don’t understand plenty of things and I mess up my life a lot, but I need to try and I need to submit.
So if that is what my faith is built on, I need to decide what is the most likely explanation for the events at hand regarding the resurrection. That leads me to this line of reasoning.
1. The NT writers weren’t lying. I just find that explanation too hard to believe.
2. If they weren’t lying, I can’t come close to finding any way of explaining what they wrote and how they lived and died. I’ve been really looking at this hard and reading and talking to a lot of people, and no explanation works. (BTW you missed the Swoon theory!)
3. If they weren’t lying, and all the other explanations fail, I’m left with the resurrection. The resurrection explains and fits with everything we read about the events, both in and out of the Bible. The only problem with the resurrection, is that the action itself is hard to believe. But that can’t be a logical reason for negating it, or there would be no point in starting the exercise of investigating it in the first place.
Wow is this long!
But now Austin, you are at a pivotal point in MY life, not yours. I truly did start a complete examination of my faith a little more than a year ago. This is what I have come to. If you can come up with a theory that explains how the NT writers could believe what they wrote with the depth they believed it, and also explain why the Jews nor the Romans ever produced the dead body of Jesus, I will seriously consider abandoning my faith. If you cannot, my faith will be bolstered immeasurably and I will “double down” on it in my personal life.